In another post Denise mentioned something about times when she would want to eat chocolate but instead ate an apple. Which got me thinking-I know I've read some posts here that say if you are truly hungry eating an apple will satisfy you instead of the ( INSERT FOOD HERE) that you really wanted. I know for myself that more than likely I would end up eating the apple and the chips or chocolate and end up eating more calories because I ate both.

For today's homework:

If you knew you were hungry, and really wanted some chocolate, or chips, or whatever, and you chose to eat a piece of fruit, would that satisfy you and keep you from eating whatever it was in the first place?

Or-would you eat the fruit, then eat whatever your craving food was and end up consuming more calories than if you had just eaten what you wanted in the first place?

Would you continue to crave that certain food, even if you ate the apple? Would you keep going back and looking at it? Wondering, should you or shouldn't you eat it? Or will you forget all about it because you are no longer hungry?

I also read in an article, and I can't remember where or what article, but the author was talking about this exact thing. Is it better to eat a portion of what you really want or eat something you really don't want? Yes, by choosing and eating something "better for you" you are satisfying the physical but are you satisfying the mental? Will you end up right back at that same place an hour later-looking at that Dove chocolate?

Jill

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Would you continue to crave that certain food, even if you ate the apple? Would you keep going back and looking at it? Wondering, should you or shouldn't you eat it? Or will you forget all about it...?

I think that this is a case where a clean pantry or just "cut and dry" decisions about when you are or are not going to eat REALLY, REALLY helps.

If I don't have ice cream in the freezer... I don't keep going back and looking at it… because there is nothing to look at. I have the thought of, "Ice cream... oh well... not today" and I literally don't think about it again. Actually, MOST of the time I don't think of it the first time (unless I'm posting about it )... it isn't like I opened the freezer for some mixed vegs... and a carton of ice cream fell out. There is no ice cream to begin with… except on Friday nights. 1 pint. For 3 people.

I also think that my decision at the school staff room, “If I didn’t bring it, I don’t eat it” REALLY, REALLY helps. I don’t “wonder, should you or shouldn't you eat it?” I’ve already decided. There is NO back and forth. Should I? Or Shouldn’t I? And YES… I do forget about it. I walk past the cookies, candy, etc… and make my copies. Then I go teach my class and pack up and go home. I really do forget about it. I don’t go back to the teacher’s lounge to see if it is still there… and decide AGAIN should I eat it or not. Deciding 7 or 8 times "I'm not going to eat this" sucks.

MOST of the places I go… I don’t waffle back and forth, back and forth. That waffling kind of sucks!

I don’t keep food in the house that makes me waffle. And I’ve already decided what to do about the “treats” at work.

I make a list and don’t go to the grocery store hungry. ONCE in a great while I waffle at the grocery store… but not very often at all. Once in a while, I’ll waffle on a dessert… if I’m in the store on a Friday… Like I planned on ice cream but ______ looks good. I almost NEVER waffle on a Monday afternoon shopping for dinner co-op… because I’m there to buy meat, vegs, fruit, skim milk, etc, etc, etc. I’m not there to buy donuts or something. And I may think, “Ummmm a donut would be good” and then I walk past and don’t think about it again until I’m in the next aisle and “Ummmm corn dogs would be good” and I walk past and move on to the next aisle. I don't go back and look at the donuts. I used to do that once in a while, when I first started... but the more you move on and decide, "Is donuts on my list today? No. I have no business buying donuts", the easier it gets.

But if you never just make a cut and dry decision about donuts and donuts are ALWAYS a possibility EVERY time you walk into a store... well, I guess it will ALWAYS be hard.

If eating was a possibility or an option EVERY single time I walked into the teachers’ lounge… I can’t imagine how hard that might be. But in my mind, the food in the lounge is not an option… and it is no longer difficult to pass it by.

But MOST people probably have THREE places that are “tempting” for the most part in life, that do the MOST damage to their eating plans.
a) home
b) work
c) grocery store

And if you have a plan to deal with these THREE situations and have some cut and dry decisions already made… it is pretty easy… after you do it a few times… or a few months.

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Hmmmmmmm... I'm having trouble imagining that such a specific PHYSICAL hunger even exists…

Me too.

Denise - BTW - I LOVE reading your responses!

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Which brings me to my question...what makes you hungry for a certain food? A commercial on TV? A random memory of pizza with friends while you're hungry and staring into the fridge? For me, there's a REASON I think of certain foods. Apples probably don't pop into my head like burgers, pizza, and ice cream do...but then, I don't see commercials for apples and restaurants that sell apples and people eating apples very often.

This is a really good point Diana!

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Originally posted by D in St Pete:
[...]it would take a long time for my body to deplete its reserves.[...]

this was part of the show on the Human Body that I watched last night on Discovery. It is on every Sunday night at 9pm (eastern) and has been very eye-opening in lots of ways.

They told the story of a man who stupidly went caving alone and fell down a hole. He was able to find a little water but not food. The show explained how the brain works to protect itself. The body will first live off of your stored fat and then it will start converting your muscles to energy for the brain to function. The brain also slows down other bodily functions like your heart rate and your breathing in order to conserve energy for itself. It was 3 weeks before he was found & he was still alive. He lost 40 lbs during those 3 weeks.

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We rarely ever have desert, even when we eat out. When we eat sweets, cake, cookies, candy, pie, etc. it is usually as a stand alone snack.

I was thinking about this is AM, before I read the homework.

I pretty much eat based on what "sounds good". Somedays it's white rice, some days it's veggies like collards or kale, brussel sprouts, etc., and some days it's a specific protein. I've always eaten that way.

Yesterday and today, I really wanted some broccoli. No particular reason. I really, really wanted spinach over the weekend. Thankfully I had some frozen, otherwise, I would have been out of luck since we got hit with 18" of snow between Friday & Saturday and getting out was impossible.

I think that these are probably just trying to get some vitamins in my body that I'm missing. Somewhere I picked up that this is why we sometimes end up 'hungry' for something. I crave cheese and ice cream big time if I don't keep up with my morning yogurt, because yogurt is my main source of calcium (I've not much of a milk drinker since I lived in France, where milk has a shelf life).

But my Beck card "rule" still applies. I wait until my next meal, unless I'm really hungry then.

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Originally posted by Brie:

To me this is even more clear cut...if I'm hungry, I eat what's on my plan no ifs, ands or buts and will be satisfied with that.

Ditto.

"I'm hungry. Man, pizza sounds GOOD." Yeah, it does. But it's not what is on my plan. And the world won't run out of pizza anytime soon, so I can rest easy knowing that when pizza is in my plan, I can have pizza.

I'm just not seeing an urgency with food intake. I'm not in danger of starving...it would take a long time for my body to deplete its reserves. Chocolate won't go anywhere, so I don't need it NOW, even if I'm thinking about it.

Which brings me to my question...what makes you hungry for a certain food? A commercial on TV? A random memory of pizza with friends while you're hungry and staring into the fridge? For me, there's a REASON I think of certain foods. Apples probably don't pop into my head like burgers, pizza, and ice cream do...but then, I don't see commercials for apples and restaurants that sell apples and people eating apples very often.

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Originally posted by jillybean:
What I was trying to get across was being hungry for (not necessarily craving) a certain food... What I meant and did not explain very well was hunger, true hunger not craving because of a bad day, a fight with a loved one, etc. Sometimes I am hungry and want an orange, or a salad and I eat it. So if I get hungry for and want some ice cream then I will eat that.

Hmmmmmmm... I'm having trouble imagining that such a specific PHYSICAL hunger even exists…

I can say with a fair degree of certainty that my grandparents never ate Thai food. Never had an opportunity to taste it. I doubt that they ever experienced a “hunger” for Pad Thai. I crave or “feel hungry” for Pad Thai sometimes… but I KNOW what it tastes like. I’ve also experienced the feeling of “being hungry for Pad Thai (or ______) and there is no Thai food in town” or I can not satisfy the “craving” of the moment… and nothing bad has happened.

When I was a vegetarian… I used to get a craving for liverwurst sandwiches. Some people would tell me that I was craving protein. I don’t think so. I was NEVER eating in a way that was protein deficient. Plus, I was “hungry for” liverwurst with mayo and white bread… like my grandmother made it. It may have FELT like a physical craving… but it was very emotionally driven. I seriously doubt that I had a huge physical need for 300 saturated fat grams and some Wonder Bread.

People may very well get cravings for oranges or something… but the average American with an average income and the ability to purchase a fairly decent balanced diet probably is not on the verge of developing scurvy and of NEEDING foods with vitamin C.

I have experienced something many people call, “Eating around the Craving”. For example, I remember one time I really wanted an m&m McFlurry… and decided to be “good” and not have one… and I came home and ate about 9 bowls of cereal and skim milk… and yes, I would have been better off calorie wise eating the McFlurry. I “was hungry” for the McFlurry, and should have just had one. I think that this is what you are talking about, right?

However, I can literally only remember this ONE incident of “eating around the craving” AND it was while I was trying to lose weight (it was in 2004).

I think that “Eating Around the Craving” is a behavior that is unique to DIETERS. It is a diet behavior. For one thing… My m&m McFlurry incident was after a concert and we ALWAYS had a m&m McFlurry after a concert… and I decided not to. But there WAS a big emotional component there. I was being “good” and didn’t have one. I didn’t want to be “bad” and go over my WW points. My ds and dh did have one. Today… I’d just plan to have one.

Also, I have eaten dessert twice a week (on weekends) for most of my whole entire life. I literally can NOT think of a SINGLE time when I have eaten around a craving on a Wednesday afternoon. There have been MANY, MANY, MANY times where I think of an ice cream on a Wednesday… and don’t go home and eat 2 boxes of cereal. If I’m eating enough food… that I am neither physically nor emotionally deprived… I don’t over eat. If I attempted to eliminate ice cream COMPLETELY… I might go insane and over eat it. But I can not think of one single time where I was physically hungry for ice cream and HAD to have it and just could NOT wait until Friday night.

I think that too many people make food into some kind of drama… like maybe like some old drama about drug addicts like “The Man with the Golden Arm” and they NEEEEEED ice cream… or something awful will happen, like they will eat 3,000 calories in cereal and milk or go hold up a Dunkin‘ Donuts. (My ex-husband was an ex-heroin addict and thought that movie so funny).

And I also think that people give the “I physically need ice cream” too much thought or power so something. Needing ice cream or chocolate on a Wednesday afternoon isn’t like another physical need… like going to the bathroom or something. Eventually, I’m going to go in my pants… But I’ve never PHYSICALLY needed ice cream to that point… what ever the “going in your pants” ice cream analogy might be.

I’ll guess over the years, I’ve had the thought “Hmmmm… I could go for some ice cream right now… oh well… I guess I’ll have an apple” literally thousands of times. I have yet to eat the whole 5 lb bag of apples. I have yet to break into my kid’s piggy bank and steal his money and sneak off to Cold Stone Creamery.

And virtually ALL of my cravings have SOME emotional component. Or some component of me being "good" or "bad".

And I DO eat for emotional reasons. I eat dessert nearly every Friday… and I have no physical need to do so. It is purely emotional. And it is a very valid reason to have dessert. But, I have never experienced a PHYSICAL hunger that was specific to ONE food… and only that ONE food would satisfy it. Emotional hungers… yes. Physical hunger, no.

I don’t think that it exists… unless you are talking about a person who is protein deficient or developing scurvy or something. Or pika… people who have the urge to eat dirt… but those are diseases. I suppose that it sort of goes back to the thing of “Food Addiction” and is it or is it not a (physical) disease.

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Originally posted by jillybean:
I believe I used the craving word too much here. What I was trying to get across was being hungry for (not necessarily craving) a certain food. Because of course cravings are often attached to emotion, not hunger. What I meant and did not explain very well was hunger, true hunger not craving because of a bad day, a fight with a loved one, etc. Sometimes I am hungry and want an orange, or a salad and I eat it. So if I get hungry for and want some ice cream then I will eat that.
Jill

To me this is even more clear cut...if I'm hungry, I eat what's on my plan no ifs, ands or buts and will be satisfied with that.

I say this to my 7 year old all the time - if you are really hungry then have an apple. If you are hungry "only" for ice cream or a cookie then you aren't "really" hungry. ; )

Craving something is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it is your body's way of telling you it needs something you are not giving it.

I doubt that our bodies ever NEED chocolate but if you are craving,for example, something salty, it could be that you are low on iodine.

From WebMD
"Iodine is important in the production of thyroid hormones and critical to normal brain development in newborn infants and children. "

"Iodized salt is now the main source of iodine in the American diet, but only about 20% of the salt Americans eat contains the micronutrient.

Increasing popular "designer" table salts, such as sea salts and Kosher salts, usually do not have iodine, and neither does salt used in most fast foods and processed foods.

Add to this the fact that iodine is no longer used in the production of commercial breads and dairy products, plus the ever-present public health warnings about restricting dietary salt, and iodine deficiency becomes a real threat for some people in the United States."

I sometimes get a craving for cranberry juice and I figure it is my body warning me of an impending kidney infection so I will make it a point to drink a lot of it for a few days.

I think that's a really good distinction.

And I think that's what I do, not so much 'craving' as 'hungry for'. If I'm in the mood for something as opposed to the 'must have chocolate' mindset.

And I didn't think anyone sounded militant. I just tend to do the opposite of what a lot of folks do, I don't count, I don't weigh, I don't journal....

However, I am hungry, so need to forage food now.

I believe I used the craving word too much here. What I was trying to get across was being hungry for (not necessarily craving) a certain food. Because of course cravings are often attached to emotion, not hunger. What I meant and did not explain very well was hunger, true hunger not craving because of a bad day, a fight with a loved one, etc. Sometimes I am hungry and want an orange, or a salad and I eat it. So if I get hungry for and want some ice cream then I will eat that. For me, this has actually cut down on cravings big time for me because I have taken away the "restriction" in my mind. Now, on the other hand, if I am in a horrible mood, had a rotten day at work, have PMS and have just eaten lunch and think I must have chocolate, then I need to re-group and think about the why.

Sorry-I wanted to be more clear when typing up that homework because there is a big difference between hunger and cravings.

Jill

I write out a food plan with alternative choices each week. I stick to that plan as best as I possibly can without having to simply drop the plan.

So, each week, I give myself a treat of chocolate, maybe a HKiss, or the like. I know that's one point for two, and that satisfies what I might crave. I have learned that if I deny myself those things I can eat on my plan, that I will rebel and not be able to stick to it.

At times when I crave something and "HAVE" to have it; I have 20 things I have to do before I give in, some are physical things, walk, follow a tape, write a letter, journal, etc., and normally those keep me from eating the "must have" item. If not, then I will have a list of substitutes that I use. Bananas are sweet enough for me, or frozen grapes (10) to do the trick. I can't yet give in to everything, within limits, cause there are some limits, I won't honor once I start.

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I wasn't trying to be militant or convert anyone in my post..on a re-read, I'm afraid it may have sounded that way.

I didn't read it that way either Diana!

I also agree with wanting to know the root of the stress that is causing the craving. For me, that's part of what helped break the whole stress eating cycle. That and knowing that I'll just feel worse about myself if I "give in".

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I wasn't trying to be militant or convert anyone in my post..on a re-read, I'm afraid it may have sounded that way.

Not to me, Diana. I tend to do the same thing.

I wasn't trying to be militant or convert anyone in my post..on a re-read, I'm afraid it may have sounded that way.

I like to know "why." Why am I not sleeping? Why am I craving chocolate? Why am I bored at work? It's a very deep part of who *I* am and how I function in the world.

So "just" having a piece of whatever I'm craving is not good for me--I'll eat it, then sit and wonder why I ate it, if I should have eaten it, why I'm wondering why I ate it, and soon I'm so wrapped up in wondering why I'm wondering why I wonder that my head hurts. There's a reason behind it, and the sooner I get to that reason, the happier I'll be.

There's a plan. Eat what's on the plan and look forward to what's next. No questions. And it might be laid out in mind-numbingly precise detail to someone else, but it's what works for me.

I have a Beck card that says "I can have (whatever I'm craving) at my next meal. At the moment I am not hungry." I've been pretty good at sticking to that.

But I will have that item at my next meal. Sometimes I will "substitute" something close to what I really want if it's more a texture yen. (ie instead of chips, I have pretzel crisps, that I like better because they're more crispy and just as salty--and less greasy. It's still about the same calories, but I usually crave something because of it's texture).

opposite Annie checking in. I keep a small amount of 'whatever' around the house, but I buy the good stuff. I will have a piece of chocolate, or bite of ice cream, if I want it. I tend to compensate the calories, so that it balances out. (sometimes, for dinner, I will have the oven-baked organic gluten-free tater tots).

I have the piece of something first. And its usually not a hunger thing, its a 'I feel like chocolate'.

I have noticed though, if I buy cheap chocolate, I eat more (or the 'bite-sized') than if I buy the good brands, organic, etc.

And I have more cravings if I start eating the cheaper stuff. But if I go for homemade, or high-quality, its less of a problem.

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Originally posted by D in St Pete:

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Food itself is NOT a substitute for comfort, love, or sleep.

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I often find that when I am having cravings or wanting too much food in general, I need rest and sleep. Plus, have you read abou the recent reports linking childhood obesity to lack of sleep. Basically, children (and adults) tend to go for food for energy when they are tired.

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I do not NEED chocolate. I NEED to cope with feelings in a healthy, good-for-me way.

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Yes. I agree. And I sometimes want choclate- it is fine for me to plan it in my weekly foods and have the chocolate. But grabbing a Snickers Bar at the check out aisle because I want it send up a huge, bright red flag.

brie, you make a really good point.

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Yes, by choosing and eating something "better for you" you are satisfying the physical but are you satisfying the mental? Will you end up right back at that same place an hour later-looking at that Dove chocolate?

"Cravings" are not a reason to eat. That's one of my "rules."

My mental health is better served by taking care of myself and NOT coping with stress/anger/frustration by eating a piece of chocolate. When I HAVE to eat a piece of chocolate...there's something else wrong, and it's not something a piece of chocolate can fix. I'm better served by taking some breaths and figuring it out. Am I stressed at work and want chocolate because it lets me get out of my chair? Then I need to take a walk. Am I lonely? Then I need to reach out in some way. Am I angry? Then I need to figure out how to express that appropriately.

Food is "comforting" in the sense that I enjoy doing it around people I care about or whose company I enjoy. Food itself is NOT a substitute for comfort, love, or sleep.

I do not NEED chocolate. I NEED to cope with feelings in a healthy, good-for-me way.

And if I'm REALLY hungry, string cheese and fruit work fine. Or...doing something else. I didn't eat lunch yesterday, but I was busy all afternoon. I was hungry, but I didn't die.