I've been reading an article on marketing to girls. And its amazing, even movies like Shrek, their sequels make strong women into ditzes. The toys from Shrek show Fiona the Princess, not Fiona the Ogre. I read a retelling of Beauty and the Beast where Beast stayed a Beast, and she loved him for who he was.

On the Internet, and on here we end up seeming single-faceted. This happens in "real life" too. I spoke recently at the Library about growing up in Egypt, and patrons saw a new side of me.

So how do you fight the "single" perceptions people have? How do you portray yourself as a full person, and not just a "pretty in pink"? What things do you do that aren't traditionally feminine or masculine, and how do you pass that awareness on to your kids (if you have them)?

How do you keep the good messages that the media sometimes offers, and filter out the bad? The media portrays heavy people in certain ways, much as the ubiquitous "gay friend" in modern movies. You get the fat person who is jolly, or is a comedien. Or who is unable to control himself or herself. So many of these messages become embedded without us realizing that they are there.

So list some of the messages that have become embedded in your psyche or that you've seen being portrayed...and then give positive reponses that prove these messages wrong!

(I know this homework is slightly scatty, basically, think about messages about being girly, fat, masculine, feminine, etc that you get, messages that beauty is skin-deep, list some of the messages that resonate with you, and how you fight them)

quote:

Originally posted by TriGirl:
Denise, why do I not find it hard to believe that a son of yours typed a 500-word post?

LOL!!! or limited himself to SCREAMING only 500 words... I warned him that cap lock key would get him in trouble.

Denise, why do I not find it hard to believe that a son of yours typed a 500-word post?

It's interesting that Cate came up with this homework when she did. I had a similar conversation a few days ago with a friend.

I am not (and never have been) a girly girl. I'd much rather hang out with guys and play pool, watch football, or do something athletic than hang around the "womenfolk" discussing kids, babies, etc. (More power to all the moms out there. It's just not for me.)

I don't fit in with the female friends I have. At least I feel like the odd person out. I like knowing that I'm smart enough to do very well in engineering (a typically "male" profession). I struggle with feeling like an outcast with the guys, too, because I am a girl, and can react just like one with no effort. (I can't help it if I'm wired like one even if I don't come across as one. )

I never fit in in school, I was always the fat kid. I didn't think I was special, smart, or have much of a positive perspective on myself or life in general. Much of it was how my mom treated me, after my dad died, he kind of buffered the harshness. It took a year of counseling to realize that I have lots to contribute to the world, but I need to find what I'm best at and focus my energies there.

I never know how people see me, I am really bad at seeing myself from other people's eyes. Especially since I know full well ALL of my faults. It's something I still work on every day. Maybe someday I'll get there.

I've chosen to experience life on my terms. I'm smart, I am not afraid to face a challenge, and I have learned to only take advice from a small number of people who I trust to have my best interests at heart.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Coaster Girl,

quote:

Originally posted by cate:
So how do you fight the "single" perceptions people have?

When I first read the homework yesterday, it was on the fly as I was about to leave for a hair appointment and I really couldn't think of anything (other than being fat) where there is a "single" perception people have of me.

But now, after reading all the replies, one came to mind--how people at work see me. I have done the same sort of work for 30 years, though my actual job responsibilities have changed dramatically in that time. My job, to simplify, is being a traffic cop...I have to enforce "the law" and tell people what they can do and what they can't do.

Because of my job, and because I am the sort of person who is very serious about doing her job and doing it well, I have gained a persona at work that is strong and intimidating--even to the point of being offputting to those who are timid and unsure of themselves or new to the business (of what I do).

Having that persona is a good thing in one way--because if people see me as intimidating, they are more likely to obey "the law"--which makes my job easier. But it is a bad thing when, as is so often the case, people see me as ONLY being that strong, intimidating, serious-as-a-heart-attack person...because I am SO not just that.

One person, who has come to know me pretty well over years of association, laughs when I tell her that people are afraid of me. She can't even think of me that way if she tries, because she's gotten to know me better and knows that isn't who I am. She knows I'm a goof and a person who loves to make people laugh.

Over the past few years, as I have become aware of this perception of me (apparently, it's been going on for years and I was clueless), I have tried to change the way I interact with folks--try to be less severe, less clipped. It's tough, though, because: a) I'm an introvert, so chatting up people I don't know very well isn't easy for me; and b) I have SO much to do and SO little time to do it and I just want to get back to what needs to be done.

Diana--Back at the height of the video game arcade era, I was nearly always the only female in the joint, always the only female who wasn't just there to hang with her boyfriend, and often the only person over 25 (I was substantially older than nearly anyone else in there).

The boys would sometimes start out with these "what is SHE doing here" disses when I walked in and 30 minutes later end up standing behind me watching (and commenting appreciatively) while I was rocking out some game.

Now, I am into playing computer games at home by myself--The Sims being my game of choice for the past several years. I find playing Sims relaxing, whereas if I was playing something like Halo competitively, it would not be relaxing because I am a competitive person.

Anyone old enough to remember Castle Wolfenstein? That was the first first-person shooter game I'd ever played and I was totally addicted to it. Though I had worked a long time to "beat" (get to the last level) of the game, I was almost disappointed when I did because the challenge was over.

I agree with Denise that they only time I felt that people had just a single perception was when I was pg or parenting a newborn.

Even at my heaviest, I don't think I ever felt totally defined by my weight or judged. I was working full time in my hospice job and my career was going very well. I also worked primarily with very supportive women so body image was a non-issue.

I also agree with Denise that it's very hard to see everyone's depth on a board like this which centers around healthy lifestyle as that's the topic most people post about.

I'm on a parenting list too for parenting after a loss and if someone judged me by my posts the first couple of years after Colin died, they would have thought that I was a weeping pile of mush 24/7 but that was just a small piece of who I was.

In general, I am not a girly girl in any sense. I was always more of a tomboy even as a kid - climbed trees, built forts, raced the boys skiing, etc...

While I enjoy getting dressed up and looking sexy every now and again, I'm more comfortable in my gym clothes and usually could care less about my hair and make up.

I love being able to outlift the guys at the gym, I also play a "non-girly instrument" in band (tenor sax), and in general, I would rather hang out with a bunch of guys than women (although I definitely have some women friends that are the expection to that).

I also stay away from beauty magazines. Actually I was a bit peeved that this month's Real Simple was so beauty focused.

quote:

guys mostly want to go fast… but women mostly care more about technique.

HAH! Me & the boyfriend's mom were doing the painting of two rooms yesterday. Boyfriend's stepdad is all, "Haven't you finished taping yet?" (putting the blue tape up) Boyfriend responds FOR me..."She'd rather do it right than do it over."

A friend's daughter plays with the Halo PMS clan. She's fun...and taught me to play Halo! Right now I'm all about Lord of the Rings: Online My reactions are getting too slow for some of the FPS games. AND we got a Wii in January, so we've been having fun with that, too. I'm a good bowler!

PS... I mostly like it when people are surprised that I play trombone in a big band... rather than playing violin or clarinet or flute or a traditionally "girl" instrument.

Or I like it when I occasionally can lift more weight than some of the guys at the gym.

Or I was skiing with a guy I met on the chairlift, as it was pretty foggy and I knew the mountain and he didn’t so he basically followed me one morning. I skied better than he... and he was surprised that I dislocated my knee cap two years ago... in the terrain park (OK… it WAS a baby terrain park )... And I hadn't packed up my skis and I was back out there. Just don’t find a LOT of women pushing 50... In the terrain park… even if it was on one of the greenest of the green runs.

And I did keep up with my 15 year old kid this week. Both the guy on the chair lift and my son ski FASTER than I do… but I ski BETTER… and that is a VERY woman-thinking kind of thing… guys mostly want to go fast… but women mostly care more about technique. And I wouldn’t trade.

quote:

Originally posted by cate:
So how do you fight the "single" perceptions people have?

The only time I've felt that people looked at me in ONE way in the past 20 years or so is when I was pregnant. All anybody saw was my stomach and I felt like a giant walking womb and that was my only function in life for that time. I remember going to the library and feeling like nobody cares that I can read or am smart or can do calculus. I’m was just a baby making thing. It felt like EVERY conversation with either people I knew… and with complete strangers was about my pregnancy.

I think that I had a high risk pregnancy early on also made this worse, as HOURS of time every week were devoted to hospital and doctors and lab visits. And I felt that I was valued for one purpose… getting this baby to term.

Currently I don’t feel any great need to “fight” any perceptions people may have about me. Actually, I think that peoples’ perception of me is pretty close to accurate. I feel like the people that know me and matter, see me as a whole person.

As far as marketing… such as magazines and such… I mostly don’t buy them and I don‘t watch a LOT of TV. I guess, I alternate between being angry… and not caring and feeling very apathetic about marketing.

I think that online… it is harder to see people as “whole” people. Especially, posting on a weight board. Somebody can post that they are struggling with an issue or “OMG!!! I’m sooooo fat!!” and it is hard sometimes to remember that is NOT their whole entire life… Not to mention… we can all only type so fast… and there just isn’t time to post about EVERY aspect of our lives… and to actually have time for a life, too.

quote:

Originally posted by D in St Pete:
I love computer games. Like, online, with other people, FPS (first-person shooter) games.

My kid plays FPS games. He also loves them. It is hard to see my baby, who I breastfed and used to read the “Little House” books to and who came home crying in first grade because the kids were singing some song on the playground about barbequing Barney the Dinosaur… hard to see my little boy turn into a lean-mean-first-person-virtual-killing-machine.

And as gross as it is… dh and I both agree that ds is REALLY good at it and it seems to have boosted his self esteem and the people he plays with respect him for his gaming skills (although he did get banned from posting on some board until the year 2136 or something because he called somebody a moron… all in capitals... typed out a post about 500 words long... all in capitals... that‘s my baby).

The talking online to people seems to have improved his social skills even though that is sort of contrary to all of the conventional wisdom. That is really hard… to explain to people that you don’t have a problem with your kid covered with virtual blood… and actually see a lot of value in it… and it has been a mostly good experience.

Some girl on line in Japan told him about a game called “Viva Piñata” which is a game that would appeal to 6 year olds… and he went on a month long “Viva Piñata” achievement kick and was trading virtual Piñatas with his on-line friends… but he mostly likes FPS.

Actually, being on-line has been a mostly positive experience for ds… he plays games with a guy who is about 24 in a wheel chair in GA who loves to read and write and actually encourages my ds to read and gives him suggestions for books to read.

One night, ds came in and asked me, “Do you know how to make biscuits?” I was, “yes… but WHY?” “Albo and One-Eyed-Gimp are making biscuits and they aren’t turning out… and they want help”. So, I’m explaining to two twenty-something guys in Georgia how to make biscuits over the xBox… "Thank you Mrs. TimeShifter".

Ds actually plays with a fair number of girls/women. He has some lady who is a SAHM in Australia that he plays with… her “name” is NutsPolarBear or something like that.

And there is a girl in Japan who likes to play the first person shooter games and also practice speaking English. She’ll have a very large swear word vocabulary. (We don’t let ds swear on the Xbox. He has to figure out how to communicate without the F word at least while we are in the house.) They all call her “Japanese Girl” but that isn’t her screen name.

And then there is the Halo PMS Clan… all girls/women… ds has a LOT of respect for this group.

Now that he is in HS… he plays with a lot of kids from school. His ex math teacher hosts a LAN party at school every winter and spring break… and the kids bring their Xboxes and play together and eat pizza for the first 24 hours of every vacation.

And he is half way done writing some essay for an XBox contest called, “My Mother, the Gamer” (if he wins… we’ll have to explain that it is a work of fiction… since his mom has NO gamer skills at all and I’ve tried it and am an easy target. I could hear other people talking about me because I would walk into a wall and couldn‘t figure out how to turn around and I‘d be stuck with my face in a corner and people would come up and laugh at me and say, “Dude!!! OMG!!! Come over here!!!! There is some dumb f--- with his head stuck in a corner!!!!”… then kill me. Ds had to say, “Hello? My mom is not some dumb f---”. ) And ds’s made videos about the death of his Xbox (he got the 3 lights and the Xbox is in McAllen TX right now)… so in a weird way… it is a muse for his creativity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GoingSkiing,

I am getting just a bit tired of reactions I have gotten when I say that I'm into kickboxing (before the shoulder injury, it was usually my primary form of cardio). There's this momentary blink (or even a more overt look of shock) that's feels like they're looking me over and thinking "Uh...yea...mid-50s and fat...kickboxing...of course." Several of them have been men in the medical profession.

It isn't just men or women who are 20 years old and weigh 100 pounds who kickbox...and I'm getting a little tired of people looking at me like I'm lying.

Also the weight-lifting thing...how many women look at a woman who enjoys weight lifting like there's something NOT quite right...not feminine...whatever.

I love computers and books and always thought of myself as "smart but not pretty." I was always the woman who would rather hang out with and talk to the guys than chat with the other women at a party. So a big thing for me was to get over my own stereotypes about women and start identifying more with the other smart, funny women around me and realizing that I'm not the only one out there who couldn't care less about the girly stuff 75% of the time. I also have, like D. said, started to pick and choose the good stuff out of the "feminine" role while leaving the garbage behind. So I'm willing to spend a little more (though not a lot more) time on my appearance if it helps me get taken seriously.

I love computer games. Like, online, with other people, FPS (first-person shooter) games. I also adore online RPGs (role-playing games...where instead of a gun, you get magic or swords or whatnot). There still aren't a lot of women or girls involved with those games, though I wish there were more! The games aren't marketed at women--in fact, the largest market for most of them are teenage/early 20s males. I love it when the really obnoxious ones find out they just lost to a GIRL.

I also hate shoes. HATE THEM. I won't wear them unless I have to...which means when I walk further than the driveway or go out. I wear shoes that are easy to take off at work, and slide out of them whenever I'm at my desk. I don't wear them when I garden, and I don't wear them around the house. I don't understand spending hundreds of dollars on a pair of them, or wearing an uncomfortable pair for ANY reason.

I am, though, very traditionally "feminine" about a lot of things, and I OWN it. I know I don't like getting dirty. I know I hate to sweat (my trainer pokes fun at me for wiping my forehead with a towel at EVERY BEAD OF SWEAT). I know I don't know much about cars or construction. That's fine. There's plenty I *do* know about, like makeup, paint, colors, and body language. My gifts and talents are mine, and I develop them and hand them out freely, society be damned. I like pink, and I'll wear it proudly...but without high heels!

WOW, this took me by surprise. I had to come back after some thinking on this one.

When I was much younger, yes, I noticed much more prejudice towards people who are fat. We were the last picked for games, for events at school, etc.
Even my own mother, was not very kind about having a fat kid. My worst memory of being fat, was buying a pair of tennis shoes that were just cool at 12....I asked my mom if she thought they would help me run faster, and she responded laughing and looking at the salesperson "honey, the only thing that will help you run faster is getting rid of the fat". Talk about a cross through my heart. I am 54 and that still stings.

In my work, I see that parents of children who are fat are seen as "less than parents", they are doing something wrong when their children are heavy. And some people don't mind pointing that out to them. I also see that the girl's in HS that are heavier are pitied at prom time because they either don't have dates or because they do and how "brave" of them to go, or how brave of the boy to take them. I'd like to 'smack' those people.

AS far as "pretty in pink", people that get to know me, know that I am just as capable with a sledge hammer as I am knitting needles. They also know that my husband can sew a button on as good as he can cook or lay cement. I love the "pretty in Pink" picture of me, but it's not all that I am. I love shocking people by showing up in overalls one day and crinolin and lace the next. I think as with all things, we have to show what we want people to see. If you are smart, intelligent, capable, show that side if you want people to think that of you. If you want to have them think you are stupid and incapable of a rational thought, go for it.

I guess in my "old age" I just don't put up with much from people that causes me or those I care about to feel bad about themselves. But when you are older, you can get away with being a cranky old woman much easier.